Some Atheist Points of View

 

2008

Concerned that I had maybe written off atheists, I joined a debating group on Facebook and asked: ‘Am I being prejudiced by not liking atheists?’

The consensus in response was that, yes, I was being prejudiced in not liking them. Never happy with personal prejudices I adjusted my perspective and considered that maybe, in person, atheists were just as likeable as you and I and were acting out of conviction.

But I struggled with this one. I was told, repeatedly, in between being laughed at, that atheism is a spectrum and that few atheists are totally convinced of their position. They were also very chagrined to be repeatedly told that they were going to hell or that they were ‘fools’ by believers. Atheist/Christian relationships remained strained with excesses on both sides.

Usually the atheists are scripturally literate, much to the annoyance of many Christians. But often debates are around a kind of caricatured Old Testament God which only the atheists recognise. ‘Your God destroyed millions in the flood did he? How is he good and loving then?’ And every single verse in the Bible picked up and analysed for further evidence that the Christian God is a complete tyrant and monster.

Sometimes they will have a point. For example, their emphasis on the question of suffering (which can never be answered satisfactorily this side of eternity), is the evidence which they keep bringing to the table that a good God does not exist. It is compelling evidence too. Because what it shows is that God either doesn’t exist, or that he is neglectful or that he has other reasons for not righting wrongs or alleviating suffering. If the good news is that God is love - then the atheists want more evidence than the cross.

But your friendly atheist is not always friendly online. Sometimes he, or she, is brutally nasty. The atheist response is that they are only responding in kind to some of the things they have to put up with (the being called ‘fools’ and the hell threats).

Over the years I have asked some of them what they thought about Christian revival... so their responses here are usually about the UK around 2008...

Stephen said: “71% of the country say they are Christians. The Prime Minister is a Christian. The previous Prime Minister is a Christian. Atheists are a very tiny minority.”

Carl said:

“I think we should get rid of all the religion and the theists from our country. Christianity has had 1700 years to get its act together and look at the state of the country.

We have a Christian Monarch, A Christian Prime Minister with two previous Christian Prime Ministers, We live in a Christian state with a Christian Legislature. We've had dozens of Christian rulers imposing Christian values on us and the country is now completely broken. Christianity has ruined our country.

Look at the USA. North American Indians inhabited America for thousands of years. They lived in harmony with nature. When the Christians arrived, America was completely unspoiled. Thousands of years of living in harmony with nature was wiped out in a mere 300 years. Because that's how long it took Christianity to turn it into a sh*thole of crime, bigotry, war-mongering, gun-loving, drug-infested, immorality.

Christianity has had its chance. It's time to move over and let Secular Humanism fix the damage caused by Christianity. We could once again be a green and pleasant land.”

In the end I became persuaded that yes, I was being prejudiced against a community and that the OT perspective of God as a monster was not entirely without some evidence. In fact the God presented in the OT seemed to be a completely different character to the God of the NT. I concluded that the 'good news' or gospel had to be that God is, in fact, love - or else there is very little good news to be found. The evidence for that, when there is so much suffering for so many of us is hard to find. Perhaps the only real evidence believers have are the accounts of Calvary. And ice cream of course.

But surely some kind of revival might help persuade us that God is not this angry, monstrous character so many of us still fear could exist?

An Agnostic View

2008 

I asked agnostic Jason (June 2008) if he thought a Christian revival was possible. He also understood the idea immediately but was sceptical about revival phenomena such as miracles of healing. I asked him what the church needed to do. He said: “The things any religion needs to have a revival are patience - unity and patience.”

It echoed what my old pastor had once said, ‘If you want to save souls, you will need tonnes of gentleness and tonnes of patience’.

I have a sneaking respect for agnostics. Sure, they are on the fence over the whole existence of God thing, but they sometimes take a no-nonsense approach to life. Plus, rightly or wrongly, they are trying to keep their options open. They also tend to happily keep alive the tradition of blaming God when things go wrong without feeling that they have committed some cognitive dissonance in doing so. Usually less scripturally literate than the atheist, they are still a much-misunderstood community. As I’ve mentioned to more than one of them before, ‘Blaming God is actually an act of base faith’. Your friendly agnostic is not usually going to have much trouble over-thinking why the scraping of his car window free of frost one bitter winter morning is not a good reason to blame God. And let’s face it – it’s a good reason to blame God. That frost didn’t get there for no reason and let’s bet those neighbours can afford some gadget which prevents their car windows from freezing up. Or else, their car windows are clear and free of all frost completely! That would be just like God, to single us out for a very special frosting of the windows. And this on top of everything else! It’s not what I need right now!

I find this train of thought compelling and am sometimes party to it too. It makes absolute sense at the time before people start complicating things with issues like global warming and ‘putting things into perspective’ or ‘counting your blessings ™’.

The agnostic position is, of course a spectrum – some veer closer to the idea of there being no God at all. Others are half-persuaded, but unwilling or unable to make a greater commitment.

Concerning the agnostic relationship to a Christian revival, I have found that they understand the concept, but not the specifics. There is always an opinion on God, on Jesus, on revival, on churches, on prosperity preachers and on the meaning of life or the existence or otherwise of the soul. There are various perspectives. Most will see Jesus as a good man who they really don’t want to get on the wrong side of. They will happily criticise Christians, especially those with power. Some of them, of course, barely give any thought to faith issues at all. The idea of agnostics finding a book or blog about revival as particularly compelling is not likely. The response would be ‘It’s just religion, isn’t it?’ I could say, ‘Yes, but it is so much more than that, it is concerned with issues like the meaning of life and whether God exists and miracles and issues at the core of what it means to be human’. And they would answer, ‘That’s right, religion.’ It’s a nice box to put mysteries in if you are undecided on these issues.

So, our agnostics will, of course, believe in revival. It’s hard not to, being as they are historically verifiable events. But they will doubt whether they are really from God and may see them as a form of mass hysteria or hallucination. There are so many perspectives within this one group (which encompasses so many other races and communities) that it is hard to say that there is a consistent position. If there were it might be expressed in a similar way to this:

‘If your Christian revival would make things better then why hasn’t God sent one to us? Is it because he doesn’t exist? And why is that frost only on my car windscreen?’

Of course, when I choose the frost analogy, I’m not really only talking about frost…

An Orthodox View

In 2005, interested in all things Russian, I decided to attend a small Russian Orthodox Church in Birmingham. In the past I had visited numerous different church denominations – many different Protestant denominations and some Catholic churches. But I had never visited an Orthodox church. It was close to Bonfire Night and I drove to the church, not sure of what to expect.

When I arrived, it looked like any other house on the outskirts of Birmingham. There were no signs and no crosses to show that it was a church. I knocked on the door. A bearded man in black robes welcomed me and I was led to a room. The room was full of incense and icons of saints along with some seats for the small congregation. I think perhaps there were ten or fifteen people there, I can’t say for sure because I was almost overwhelmed by a feeling that God was in the room. As I prayed, I got the feeling that God was either puzzled or surprised. It didn’t make sense. That can happen in some church services, but I have never felt it to the extent that I did at that small Orthodox church on a housing estate.

I stood at the back and the service began. I didn’t understand a word of it because it was all in Russian. At the end of the service, I was kindly offered communion, I think out of politeness. I refused it as graciously as I could.

After the service, some of the churchgoers sat at a table in another room along with the priest. They all spoke to each other in Russian and it felt like a community gathering of the local Russian diaspora. I will still feeling awe-struck by the whole thing when the priest asked me:

“What did you think?”

“Thank you, it was a very good service.” I replied.

And I completely forgot all intentions to ask about revival or anything else.

My reply seemed to please those around the table. It was ironic that I most felt the presence of God in a service from which I could barely understand a single word.

It should be noted that the Orthodox church had gone through a revival in Russia at least. In the same way that places in Africa and Asia were going through an increase in the number of Christians, Russia too, was experiencing an increase following the collapse of the USSR. There were many reasons for this, but mostly it was because they were no longer being persecuted at such an intense level. It is hard for revivals to happen during persecution – maybe China could be said to be experiencing one, but this is at the same time as a persecution from their Government. Some believed that a revival could only happen if there was a persecution at the same time, but historical evidence didn’t make this a necessity.

As for the Orthodox – my experiences with them were almost completely positive. If I were to change denomination at all, it would be to Orthodoxy. They claim that when the Church split in the Great Schism of 1054, they were not the ones who strayed from the original faith. So, between the Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants, it is Protestantism which has the least claim to being the legitimate successor from the original church.

Orthodoxy has no pope. They believe that they are all brothers and sisters. But there are leaders and patriarchs. The icons which they use are no more idolatrous than the Catholic statues of Mary. They are an aid to worship, in the same way that a stained-glass window or any other Protestant paraphernalia is.

I have an Orthodox icon on my writing desk. I love it. It shows Jesus in a thoughtful, if slightly distracted, mood. He is holding a book and he is dressed in a green and red. He looks a bit like Robin Hood. Behind him is the usual gold colour of icons. On the other side of this small foldable (to close when I want nothing to do with him) is a representation of Mary. Mary looks calm and holds a child, who, in the way of many icons, is not so much a baby as a miniature human being. I got the icon cheap from an Orthodox Christian bookshop, before it closed down. The outside of it is carved in a pattern but the varnish is flaking away from sun damage, hence the discount. When I went on holiday to Greece, I saw a shop selling the same icon in a box. There were piles of this same icon for sale (at which point I didn’t feel very special at all).

But the Orthodox church in the UK is great. They are a powerhouse of prayer and action.  If there is a full-blown revival coming then we cannot write off the Orthodox church.

The Megachurch

2004

“A lot of people pray for the big R’ who need to get off their ‘big A”. So said a British megachurch pastor during the sermon on Fri 13 Aug 2004. It seemed a bit harsh.

I was attending a megachurch at the time, an independent church which attracted all kinds of people. Thousands of people in one service complete with contemporary worship team and slick presentations.

The view that Christians were simply not doing enough was a common perspective. Maybe more prayer? Maybe more social action? The preacher had basically said the same thing as the Muslims I interviewed when the story started.

After the service I spoke to a member of the congregation there named Lee. He said something a bit more profound. “If you look at the Bible, God wants everyone to know about him. Revival means bringing people to God. I don’t think you can necessarily tell there is a revival until after things have happened.”

Did he mean that a revival could actually be happening at the moment, we just don’t know it? Well that is madness isn't it? If a pandemic is happening you know it is happening. The same with a revolution or a recession... can we really just be so isolated that we miss it all?

It bugged me though. All of the past revivals had happened in public and people would know that they were happening. The idea of some behind the scenes secret revival seemed to be a little vague. The kind of thing that a contemporary prophet might say if they had predicted a revival which never happened, but still maintained that it had begun... only it could not be seen or felt yet. A kind of denial that they got it wrong.


This particular megachurch was not without its critics. They said that they focused too much on money and effectively preached a prosperity gospel by their lifestyles and their constant requests for money. My experience of this place was mixed. I'm not saying that this church explicitly preached the prosperity gospel. This was too simplistic. Many people loved this church and found the teaching helpful. The church also had initiatives to help homeless people and those in need. Many people became genuine Christians at this church. It was all so grey and mixed up... like so many things.

But even among the modern day revivalists there were those who seemed to be in it for the money. It was a popular view that many churches simply wanted their income rather than their congregation to grow. Televangelists and (often American) high profile Christian authors and leaders had turned people off the whole faith by their insistence that God wanted them to have the latest jet plane to travel around and spread the gospel. The leaders got their mansions, but often at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable. The trouble was, and is, that their lives spoke louder than their words. They effectively changed the gospel message of John 3:16, to say, 'If you give me money, God will give you more money back.' Or heal you. Or answer your prayers. Reducing their sermons to the kind of thing that you could read in any self-help book.

I'm not saying that this is what was happening at this megachurch, but this is what their critics claimed.

If there was anything that revival wasn't, or shouldn't, be about, then it is money. That was missing the whole message. That was missing the whole point. If there is a quiet revival then it should not be about money. Let's face it, there is only so much that money can do. If a revival comes and it becomes about money then we have absolutely failed in anything we hoped to do. We are not supposed to be Elmer Gantrys. We do not have to be financially illiterate, but when Christ accused people of loving money, he did know what he was talking about. And, when push comes to shove, we really have to let go of it all in the end. Would a revival be good for certain trades? Certain businesses? And bad for others? It is hard to say, as all we have are past stories - let's hope, for example that if it happens it would not be good for the drugs trade. But what about gambling? Gambling can be fun. What about pubs? You're not going to be for any kind of revival if you think it is bad for your business. But at what cost do we place our money and our jobs?

Edward, a Christian, agreed...

“The prosperity gospel will never usher in a revival only a fake revival as it’s not based on the true gospel according to the way the disciples and apostles understood it.”

But no-one will admit to preaching the prosperity gospel will they? If it becomes about money again we really are all 'doomed'. Which is why, when Christ said 'You cannot serve both God and mammon', he knew what he was talking about. It is a false security. What is more important, health or money? What is more important? Lives or money?

The Churchgoers' View

2004

I wasn’t getting very far. I had no home access to the internet so most of my research had to be done the old-fashioned way, at libraries and by actually speaking with people. After my encounter with Michael the whole subject was getting too depressing for me.

Back to the present, someone recently said, 'The quiet revival is so quiet that I don't think most people can even feel it'. It's an issue and it is ongoing. Perhaps there needs to be some kind of breakthrough?

Back in 2004 it was April and things felt cold on so many levels. Spring had barely allowed the leaves to return to the trees and certainly had not kickstarted any spiritual Spring. I was confused, so I decided to go to a church and ask around. I went to a city Elim Pentecostal church. Surely they would have been praying for a revival? During the sermon, the youth minister, as an aside said, “We are in a period of pre-revival.”

That seemed more hopeful. But it also seemed to be part of the problem. We always seemed to be on the verge of a revival or an awakening. There was a perpetual anticipation. After the service I asked some of the Christians in the congregation there what they thought.

Neil (19) said, “I don’t know. I mean, what kind of revival are you talking about? Because there is personal revival and there is a whole revival. I’m definitely for any kind of revival in which people come to Jesus in large amounts, yes, I’m for any kind of revival in that sense. I think it needs to happen in Britain, in Europe, these two places. I think it is on the verge of happening in Britain now. Whether it will ever get past being on the verge of happening, I don’t know, but I think it will. I can’t comment on Europe, but I would hope that it will happen there. It will spill over from Britain hopefully into Europe. I think the church is becoming more and more alive in Britain from my experience and things are happening. People are getting more and more hungry for what God wants and more willing to lay down their own personal agendas – which is always a good thing. If you can’t lay down your personal agendas then you just basically aren’t going to experience revival because God has to wait until you lay down your own…God’s plan is for all people.”

I asked churchgoer Scott what he thought.

“I’m definitely for it,” he said, “I don’t think it is happening yet but I think it’s going to happen soon, hopefully. A friend of mine always used to pray ‘Let revival start with me’ and I always thought that was quite bold. You can only revive that which was once alive and I do pray that God would use me for revival. Revive me and revive the Church. We definitely need it; our land is in a mess. We need help. I think people crying out for God…I think that’s what revival is.”

This was so long before the current situation, but the general feeling among churchgoers back in 2004 was that revival would not happen before there was either a 'battle', or a deep repentance. I will discuss the present circumstances a bit more in next week's blog, but for the moment I want to talk about how we got to where we are today in the UK.

I realized that I was focusing on one city in Britain and needed to get a look at the bigger picture...